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UGMENTALCASE  
#1 Posted : Monday, July 06, 2020 12:42:33 AM(UTC)
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So here we are again slowly getting annoyed with another "upgrade".
I remember reading on here that someone was given some "technical support" to revert from precise curves to polylines to fix a drawing view. You'll never guess what, it's worked for me today. To say this is poor is an understatement! Why is an upgrade actually a downgrade?

Two images attached of a downloaded screw. Precise curves can not display it properly. Polylines basic can!
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jlm on 7/11/2020(UTC)
jlm  
#2 Posted : Thursday, July 09, 2020 2:14:01 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: UGMENTALCASE Go to Quoted Post
So here we are again slowly getting annoyed with another "upgrade".
I remember reading on here that someone was given some "technical support" to revert from precise curves to polylines to fix a drawing view. You'll never guess what, it's worked for me today. To say this is poor is an understatement! Why is an upgrade actually a downgrade?

Two images attached of a downloaded screw. Precise curves can not display it properly. Polylines basic can!


Hello Ugmentalcase,

I had this issue frequently with helix shaped solids.
Sometimes, reverting to poly lines didn't even fix it...

Yesterday I sent a very bad case to Tim and he solved it immediately, (as far as I could test in a day).
I hope a new update will be issued soon for everybody.

Remember to always send a 3D file example for him to track the problem.

JL
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GARLIC on 7/10/2020(UTC)
UGMENTALCASE  
#3 Posted : Thursday, July 09, 2020 4:18:30 AM(UTC)
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Both Tim and Todd have heard a lot from me recently. Hoping v12 doesn't fall backwards like V11 did, not a single update came out for that bug ridden release of V11!
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GARLIC on 7/10/2020(UTC)
MPSchmied  
#4 Posted : Friday, July 10, 2020 7:30:53 AM(UTC)
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Your curves seems to be real curves and no polygons, how made you this, i use always MTS with precise curves. But only the dimensions are real curves.

Edited by user Friday, July 10, 2020 7:31:26 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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UGMENTALCASE  
#5 Posted : Friday, July 10, 2020 9:35:19 AM(UTC)
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I tried it with one of the example files and got the same thing. The screw you see was in imported part. So I tried the example files and got the same results in many cases
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murray  
#6 Posted : Friday, July 10, 2020 6:43:39 PM(UTC)
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Considering that the drawing view is a graphical representation for a sheet view, not the actual mathematical technical definition that would be used in part production, what's the big deal? Pictures and printers are raster representations, not vectors. There's some missing visual information if you try to use precise curves, but when you print with polyline reps, can you tell the difference between them and the curves that are properly displayed?
UGMENTALCASE  
#7 Posted : Friday, July 10, 2020 11:59:59 PM(UTC)
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The big deal is it's missing information. Lets all send parts to product with missing information and see how they turn out. Yep, good idea that!
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jlm on 7/11/2020(UTC)
UGMENTALCASE  
#8 Posted : Saturday, July 11, 2020 12:13:33 AM(UTC)
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You know I produced a tool for a company in NX. Some of the tool was surfaces some was solids.
The machine shop didn't have their pc set up correctly (as per customer requirements) and opened the model.
I get a call "why is there two massive holes in this tool" (They had made it)
me - "There isn't"
Turns out they didn't load it correctly and went straight to production. I then spent around 2 days "fixing" it for them. Producing bolt on chunks which they needed to fit in and machine up.

Cost somewhere around £12000 to fix, I had to work for nothing finding a way to fix it for them, to no thanks at all, plus the embarrassment with the large customer name. All because some knob didn't have some setting correct to customer standard. Which by the way is the first thing you are told when working in NX for this particular customer.

So next time you feel the need to say stuff like "what's the big deal" why don't you think a little and accept that not everyone in this world would look at that and say "ah yes, that's a little CAD graphics error" which I appreciate does happen from time to time, some people will simply produce what is on that sheet of paper.
Rightly or wrongly that is the way it is.
The attached two images are of an example file which came with shark pro. I can tell you now what would be produced by certain individuals looking at that. I wouldn't expect a PRO piece of software to not be able to produce a rounded edge properly.

Edited by user Saturday, July 11, 2020 12:14:36 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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GARLIC on 7/11/2020(UTC), L. Banasky on 7/11/2020(UTC), jlm on 7/11/2020(UTC)
L. Banasky  
#9 Posted : Saturday, July 11, 2020 7:08:36 AM(UTC)
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As time goes by more and more people forget that the paper drawing is a legal document.
Quality Control uses the paper drawing, engineers sign off on a paper drawing.
Make a mistake on a paper drawing is a quick way to get fired.
Upper right corner of the paper drawing indicates Revision Changes, that require a
signature,and date.
Does the 3D Model change when there is a material change?
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UGMENTALCASE on 7/11/2020(UTC), magicart on 7/11/2020(UTC), jlm on 7/11/2020(UTC)
jlm  
#10 Posted : Saturday, July 11, 2020 3:20:20 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: L. Banasky Go to Quoted Post

Make a mistake on a paper drawing is a quick way to get fired.
Upper right corner of the paper drawing indicates Revision Changes, that require a
signature,and date.
Does the 3D Model change when there is a material change?

I agree with you .
In addition, Paper drawing is the place for tolerances, and instructions for the surfaces finishes + all instructions for the manufacturing process (part lines, Gates, sliders, ejectors...for plastic parts)
Doing 2D drawings is also a very important debugging operation for the 3D model :
I can see some issues in sections and detail views that cannot be detected directly on the solid.
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murray  
#11 Posted : Sunday, July 12, 2020 6:44:27 AM(UTC)
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Every sheet drawing that I've ever seen that is, as you say, a legal document, has the instruction "do not scale from drawing". Do you guys not observe that convention yourselves, or imagine that it's not a legal instruction? When you receive a sheet drawing, you've got no idea of the resolution of the printer that produced it, the stability of the substrate at the moisture content and temperature it's kept at, or even whether it's a scale up or down from a different-sized original. Back in the day, ISO standards defined lineweights for different-sized sheets because they were done with plotters with .3, .5, .7. .9mm pens. The reason was that the lighter lines were missing when they were scaled by photocopier, and even with the differing pens, it still was. We all know about the differences in mesh resolution when we output an .obj or .stl, and what happens when we scale it up as a mesh vs. as a CAD model, but you are all protesting that there's some fantastic magical provenance of a sheet drawing? Nobody creates tools or parts from sheet drawings, and polyline representations are more than good enough for them. Unless they're for something dead simple like a knife tool, they're references to the data, not the data nor actual working drawings for anything that demands the how-many-angels representation that you're crying woe about.
Chris, your anecdote is utterly irrelevant to this. An accurate-curves print vs. a polyline proint would make how much difference to your hapless shop's error, or how you dealt with it?
PunchCAD has plenty of meaningful things to fix, and its stablemate TurboCAD too. Both are in worse condition in some important ways than they were three years ago, maybe it's the ownership, I don't know, but this particular issue is unimportant piffle because it's never going to cause the hypothetical problems that you're proposing it might, and I'll challenge you again to pick the difference between a printed representation of "accurate curves" vs. polyline representations.
Sounds like you're outraged at me rather than Punch now. Ah well...
UGMENTALCASE  
#12 Posted : Sunday, July 12, 2020 7:39:36 AM(UTC)
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It's because you come on here talking about moisture and stuff, talk about irrelevant?!?!?!?!!?

Have you never been to a machine shop that still uses drawings? Why even have a drawing module if that's the case? The drawing is completely meaningless so lets forget the whole thing?
Every time I deal with a programmer or engineer or whoever a drawing is asked for.
I get it some people put all this information in the model and supply that, but like Larry says it essentially is a legal document. The company I produce drawings for have legal statements all over it, it's not allowed to be shared, copied, manually altered and so on. You put a threaded hole in a model, does the programmer guess whether its a hole or a tapped hole? No they don't, they check the drawing which tells them what it is.

My example isn't irrelevant at all. It shows and proves that people don't look past the end of their noses sometimes, and they'll be the first one to point the finger when they f*ck up. "It shows me that on the drawing" type attitude is in abundance at the moment.
More and more companies are taking on semi skilled to low skill leveled people to save money, and because of that the engineers simply don't understand stuff. So they produce what they see!
If you'd like an example I'll give you one.
A sales guy got taken on to perform material ordering and quoting, in the last place I worked before the management messed up so bad they shut the doors because they ran out of money.
I produced a drawing showing 3 reference parts and 1 manufactured part.
The parts for reference were displayed in reference lines and the part to produce wasn't. You'll never guess what he ordered?
He then protested his case so I had to add a balloon next to each reference detail saying "REF". Then in the BOM I added extra notes saying "REF", I then added a written note on the drawing stating those parts labelled "REF" are not to be produced/ordered.
Then the excel document that went with the drawings also had the same information added to it. All because he was wasn't an engineer. The guys he got prices off even said, are you sure we are producing these? Yes yes, his decision went above everyone else.
Then it landed at my door and I essentially took the blame for his mistakes.

So your "piffle" as you say can lead to utter idiots doing stuff wrong.

My point here is this is Pro software. This has been discussed before. How does an upgrade of 'Pro' essentially mean you get a downgrade in quality? Yes printing off doesn't make much odds, in most cases, but sometimes where maybe threads are involved or other close nit detail yeah precise curves does display better.

It seems that every time you comment on something it's backing up Punch! "Oh leave them alone, they are doing their best" type attitude to it. Doing their best would mean producing software that doesn't have simple errors like this. It's like the testing of the program simply doesn't exist!
What is the difference (in the program coding) between precise curves and not which makes this happen? I don't know and I don't care, but I'd expect it to work right? Wouldn't you?

The do not scale drawing essentially comes from the fact that you can produce it on a1 and print it off a3 so scaling doesn't work. If you didn't put that note on, then some knob head would scale it and then it would be your fault for not saying "do not scale the drawing". Sometimes things need to be spelt out. You think that's extreme, I need to add "remove sharp edges" notes on my drawings, because if you didn't every edge would be like a razor blade. I'm not joking! To the point where one company has that note in the border as a standard, then we are told to add an extra note in bigger text because "they won't look at the border note".

It's not unreasonable to want a £2000 piece of software to work as it should.

"how-many-angels representation that you're crying woe about"
I provided an example of a round part, did you miss that?

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jlm  
#13 Posted : Sunday, July 12, 2020 9:13:54 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: murray Go to Quoted Post
E
Chris, your anecdote is utterly irrelevant to this. An accurate-curves print vs. a polyline proint would make how much difference to your hapless shop's error, or how you dealt with it?
PunchCAD has plenty of meaningful things to fix, and its stablemate TurboCAD too. Both are in worse condition in some important ways than they were three years ago, maybe it's the ownership, I don't know, but this particular issue is unimportant piffle because it's never going to cause the hypothetical problems that you're proposing it might, and I'll challenge you again to pick the difference between a printed representation of "accurate curves" vs. polyline representations.
Sounds like you're outraged at me rather than Punch now. Ah well...


I'm sorry Murray, we are here talking about bugs that makes wrong representation.
As it happened to me several times the dimension tool catches wrong points on missing edges and my very important tolerance data is just...wrong.

Doing mass market products requires precision, and the injection molds I order every months (based on Shark's files AND Shark's drawings) are worth 5 000 USD (for small ones) to 300 000 USD (Complex multi-cavities, with sliders and screws)...

A very important point in my case : the 3D file is used to design the mold but the 2D drawing represents the molded part ... both are linked, but the process here is changing the resulting object.
So 2D drawing is taking into consideration all the data that cannot be included in the 3D file (polished zones, shrink, sink, deformation...).

Sometimes I have several valid 2D drawings for the same 3D file : when using different materials in the same mold (different shrink rates = different dimensions), or having 2K injection, or having in-mold assembly....

"Do not scale from drawing, but please respect written tolerances and data"

JL
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murray  
#14 Posted : Sunday, July 12, 2020 7:38:28 PM(UTC)
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A 2D drawing can't graphically represent precise 3D curves. Traditional and standardised sheet drawing representation of a tapped hole doesn't draw the threads, it has inset lines representing the thread's inner diameter, so again, the sheet drawing isn't the geometric representation of the feature, it's a graphical shorthand sketch. Some cutting tools are made directly from drawings, but the toolmakers work from the specified dimensions, they don't scale from the drawings.
I understand why you guys are pissed. Shark can't do what they claim it's able to do, and that's below par. What I'm saying is that as a print function, this is irrelevant because of the way that print drawings are used. Precise 3D data isn't taken from sheet prints because it can't be represented. If it could, the type of film it's printed on, the moisture content of the print substrate and the temperature it's used at, along with tolerances and expected deviations to THOSE specs, *would be specified on the sheet, with a chain of provenence through every print and subsequent copy*, as Jean-Louis describes for the SUBJECT of the drawing, not the drawing itself. It isn't, because it's irrelevant. The workshop drawing is a checklist and a reference for tolerances, finishes, materials as you say, but only ortho 3D data can be precisely represented on it, and then only numerically and dimensionally. Nobody measures from the drawing without looking at the specs, and if they're not there, that's not a Shark shortfall, and there's a specific instruction: "don't scale from the drawing". A print DRAWING is a sketch, not data.
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GARLIC on 7/13/2020(UTC)
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