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laura*  
#1 Posted : Friday, October 9, 2009 9:16:53 AM(UTC)
laura*

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Joined: 9/21/2009(UTC)
Posts: 16

I'm designing an art project for Burning Man. It's a vehicle of sorts. Because of its geometric constraints, a 3D CAD program will be useful: Rotating assemblies will need to clear each other by design, and a crowded engine bay will need to be as small as possible. Instead of tweaking a mockup, I'd rather try things out on a computer first. My background is software engineering, but I'm not unfamiliar with mechanical drawings. I very much insist on a Mac program which has thus led me to the Punch products.

At some point I'll need to convert the 3D model into fully dimensioned 2D drawings so that I can fabricate all the parts. Therefore, I think that the minimum PunchCAD product meeting my needs would be Shark LT.

I won't be able to fabricate complex 3D surfaces (ie "tangent cover with guide") and thus might not need the modeling features of full Shark (ie non-LT). On the other hand, perhaps those features may help model repurposed existing components?

I won't need to make pretty renderings to show to others. Alternately, might the Shark FX renderer be useful as an engineering tool to answer questions like "will this beam block too much of the operator's view?" Is the renderer good enough to show glare on a windshield from reflected lights? Is it good enough to show what the vehicle's operator will see at night?

So, LT or FX? The current 20% off offer for v5.5 FX with a v7 upgrade is tempting. However, by shopping around, one can buy both an LT and an FX copy for that price. I could start with LT and only get FX if I feel I need it. Another consideration is that it looks like some of the new v7 features may be very useful to me. A slight complicating issue is that I've been philosophically opposed to getting an x86 based computer. I might find it useful to have a PPC capable (ie v5.5) FX.
ttrw  
#2 Posted : Friday, October 9, 2009 9:55:28 AM(UTC)
ttrw

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Originally Posted by: laura* Go to Quoted Post
A slight complicating issue is that I've been philosophically opposed to getting an x86 based computer. I might find it useful to have a PPC capable (ie v5.5) FX.


Hello Laura. :)

Can I ask you to give a reason for the above statement? Do you not like progress or something? This year's Burning Man theme is "Metropolis". Isn't the creation of the metropolis, very much a symbol of progress? :confused:
tmay  
#3 Posted : Friday, October 9, 2009 11:04:18 AM(UTC)
tmay

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Joined: 2/21/2007(UTC)
Posts: 278

Laura,

There's not any important differences (in your application anyway) between ViaCAD PRO and Shark LT. I would start there with the knowledge that you could upgrade at any time to Shark. You will save a few hundred bucks now.

If you need rendering or animation, consider Cheetah3D. It is quite capable and you should be able to export parts from ViaCAD Pro using step or obj files.

If your using a G4 or G5 computer, you can get PPC support now. When V7 comes out, you will need Intel for OSX.

tom
Tem  
#4 Posted : Friday, October 9, 2009 11:24:19 AM(UTC)
Tem

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Hi Laura,

Philosophical considerations aside, I made the switch to an x86 based Mac for the opportunities in software available because the x86 Macs can run multiple OS's as needed and (with a performance hit) when running other OS's virtually. I use the software tools available regardless of the hardware it runs on, because. I don't feel or notice any difference between my old G5 and my newish MacPro, except that my MacPro is about 10 times faster and can handle a lot more.

As for your questions regarding the renderer in FX, I would not rely on a renderer to determine glare and those sorts of issues. i would research what creates glare (ie angle of light from source of illumination that flash blinds the poor schmuck attempting to navigate to Burning Man , etc.). I would create some surfaces that represent viewing angles from the drivers perspective ( use a simple person prop in side and top views located within your vehicle assembly) and then try and determine what range of sun angle will create glare issues.

This Human Factors information can be found in a very useful book, "The Measure of Man and Woman", by Henry Dreyfuss and Associates. Pages 66 thru 71 will be helpful, but not answer all of your questions.

This same modeling approach, using simple people props in side and top views, will help determine blind spots and if a structure obscures the field of vision.

As for creating part drawings, I think most of the Shark packages are fairly strong in useability and feature set for part drawings.

Feel free to visit this forum for advice, and direction on Shark CAD products as there are many very helpful and experienced users who visit and respond fairly regularly, although work can get in the way of timely responses.

All the best!

tem
laura*  
#5 Posted : Friday, October 9, 2009 11:25:31 AM(UTC)
laura*

Rank: Junior Member

Joined: 9/21/2009(UTC)
Posts: 16

Originally Posted by: ttrw Go to Quoted Post
Can I ask you to give a reason for the above statement? Do you not like progress or something?


Ha, ha! Yes, I like progress ... away from the convoluted x86 instruction set.

But Intel is the rich kid with the best chip fab lines, so that's who's toys we get to play with ... for now.
laura*  
#6 Posted : Friday, October 9, 2009 11:36:04 AM(UTC)
laura*

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Joined: 9/21/2009(UTC)
Posts: 16

Originally Posted by: tmay Go to Quoted Post
There's not any important differences (in your application anyway) between ViaCAD PRO and Shark LT.


It has been mentioned that LT has the improved ModelToSheet technology. The price difference Pro to LT is small enough (especially when shopping around) that it's not worth it for me not to get at least LT.

Originally Posted by: tmay Go to Quoted Post
If you need rendering or animation, consider Cheetah3D


Is that the free renderer that I saw mentioned someplace?
laura*  
#7 Posted : Friday, October 9, 2009 11:48:27 AM(UTC)
laura*

Rank: Junior Member

Joined: 9/21/2009(UTC)
Posts: 16

Originally Posted by: Tem Go to Quoted Post
As for your questions regarding the renderer in FX, I would not rely on a renderer to determine glare and those sorts of issues. i would research what creates glare (ie angle of light from source of illumination that flash blinds the poor schmuck attempting to navigate to Burning Man , etc.). I would create some surfaces that represent viewing angles from the drivers perspective ( use a simple person prop in side and top views located within your vehicle assembly) and then try and determine what range of sun angle will create glare issues.


The glare I'm concerned about is not from the sun, but from my own lighting. That lighting cannot go at an optimal location. It can only (practically) go above or below the operators cab - as is common for construction and farm equipment. I'm concerned that this light will be bounced back by any structure out in front - making it impossible to see the nighttime ground out beyond that structure.

Laura
tmay  
#8 Posted : Friday, October 9, 2009 12:31:31 PM(UTC)
tmay

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Originally Posted by: laura* Go to Quoted Post
It has been mentioned that LT has the improved ModelToSheet technology. The price difference Pro to LT is small enough (especially when shopping around) that it's not worth it for me not to get at least LT.



Is that the free renderer that I saw mentioned someplace?


I'm using SharkFX so I wasn't aware of the model to sheet limitation, which I use for all my drawing.

Cheetah3D is $149.

You probably are referring to blender:
http://www.blender.org/

This is an unbiased renderer like Maxwell Render
http://www.luxrender.net/

there are more; do a search on "renderer open source)

Forgot to add that Maxwell would definitely do what you want, but it would require some scenes that would simulate the environment, and it would be non trivial to do that.

http://maxwellrender.com/

tom
ttrw  
#9 Posted : Friday, October 9, 2009 1:32:33 PM(UTC)
ttrw

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Originally Posted by: laura* Go to Quoted Post

But Intel is the rich kid with the best chip fab lines, so that's who's toys we get to play with ... for now.


right...:confused:

But you can buy an Intel Mac for far less than a copy of Shark or SFX :confused:

SFX7, from what I have seen so far, is really worth the upgrade to Intel! :)

And what about a Hackintosh? Or even a PC?? Windows 7 is looking pretty nice!
laura*  
#10 Posted : Saturday, October 10, 2009 1:00:06 AM(UTC)
laura*

Rank: Junior Member

Joined: 9/21/2009(UTC)
Posts: 16

Originally Posted by: ttrw Go to Quoted Post
right...:confused:


For many years now, the speed of a general purpose program has been determined almost entirely by how fast data can be moved to/from memory. The processor architecture makes little difference. Given the same memory speed, a web browser will render a page just as fast whether it's running on a Core2Duo, PPC G5, i386, 680x0, or whatever.

A larger on-chip cache allows more data to move faster. A smaller chip geometry allows a larger cache. Ergo, the company making processors at 45nm has faster chips than the company still at 65nm. Right now Intel is the leader in chip fab, so that's who everyone wants to be friends with.

The above logic changes for certain computationally intense tasks or programmer friendliness. This is why I don't want to jump on the Intel bandwagon.

Originally Posted by: ttrw Go to Quoted Post
But you can buy an Intel Mac for far less than a copy of Shark or SFX :confused:

SFX7, from what I have seen so far, is really worth the upgrade to Intel! :)


Going by my historical pattern, I'll be looking to replace my G5 iMac as my primary computer in the year 2014 or so. I'm certainly OK with getting an Intel Mac to run v7, but that won't be my primary computer. I still have some pre-OSX and/or 680x0 programs I might need to use. The G5 can run those.

Originally Posted by: ttrw Go to Quoted Post
And what about a Hackintosh?


I'll want to use the computer - not assemble, configure, tweak, and worry about it.

Originally Posted by: ttrw Go to Quoted Post
Or even a PC?? Windows 7 is looking pretty nice!


Excuse me, I have to leave the room...

... OK, I'm back.

My dilemma could be drawn as matrix with four points:

LT5.5@PPC, LT7@Intel
FX5.5@PPC, FX7@Intel

The current "FX w/ free upgrade" offer fills all four points. Getting a SharkLT now and later updating to v7 fills the top row. With current online pricing, for about the same cost as the "free upgrade offer", it is possible get an LT now and an entirely separate FX in the future*. This would fill all but the lower left matrix point. I expect to have PPC machines around for quite a while, so that matrix point is not to be ignored.

* I expect Punch to raise the price of Shark FX with v7.

Thus the question simplifies to whether the v5.5 renderer is useful for me.
laura*  
#11 Posted : Saturday, October 10, 2009 1:03:15 AM(UTC)
laura*

Rank: Junior Member

Joined: 9/21/2009(UTC)
Posts: 16

Originally Posted by: Tem Go to Quoted Post
Feel free to visit this forum for advice, and direction on Shark CAD products as there are many very helpful and experienced users who visit and respond fairly regularly, although work can get in the way of timely responses.


I've already been reading a lot of posts in this forum!
ttrw  
#12 Posted : Sunday, October 11, 2009 4:49:00 AM(UTC)
ttrw

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Originally Posted by: laura* Go to Quoted Post
For many years now, the speed of a general purpose program has been determined almost entirely by how fast data can be moved to/from memory. The processor architecture makes little difference. Given the same memory speed, a web browser will render a page just as fast whether it's running on a Core2Duo, PPC G5, i386, 680x0, or whatever.

A larger on-chip cache allows more data to move faster. A smaller chip geometry allows a larger cache. Ergo, the company making processors at 45nm has faster chips than the company still at 65nm. Right now Intel is the leader in chip fab, so that's who everyone wants to be friends with.

The above logic changes for certain computationally intense tasks or programmer friendliness. This is why I don't want to jump on the Intel bandwagon.


:eek:

In the amount of time you just took to tell me this, you could have just modelled the whole thing in cardboard, then drawn it out in pencil, orthographically!! :p


Originally Posted by: laura* Go to Quoted Post
Going by my historical pattern, I'll be looking to replace my G5 iMac as my primary computer in the year 2014 or so. I'm certainly OK with getting an Intel Mac to run v7, but that won't be my primary computer. I still have some pre-OSX and/or 680x0 programs I might need to use. The G5 can run those.


......cardboard.......

Originally Posted by: laura* Go to Quoted Post
I'll want to use the computer - not assemble, configure, tweak, and worry about it.


....definitely cardboard, .......or maybe foam? :rolleyes:



Originally Posted by: laura* Go to Quoted Post
Excuse me, I have to leave the room...

... OK, I'm back.


Haha! that's more like it! BTW, You should try living in England! :eek:



Originally Posted by: laura* Go to Quoted Post
My dilemma could be drawn as matrix with four points:

LT5.5@PPC, LT7@Intel
FX5.5@PPC, FX7@Intel

The current "FX w/ free upgrade" offer fills all four points. Getting a SharkLT now and later updating to v7 fills the top row. With current online pricing, for about the same cost as the "free upgrade offer", it is possible get an LT now and an entirely separate FX in the future*. This would fill all but the lower left matrix point. I expect to have PPC machines around for quite a while, so that matrix point is not to be ignored.

* I expect Punch to raise the price of Shark FX with v7.

Thus the question simplifies to whether the v5.5 renderer is useful for me.


Okay, I have a suggestion, why not get on the Rhino for OS X beta bandwagon? I don't think McNeel will be charging for at least another year. Rhino still works on PPC (just?).
Tem  
#13 Posted : Sunday, October 11, 2009 11:37:38 PM(UTC)
Tem

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Maybe, you could rotate the structures out in front by 45 degrees to deflect the light some so that it doesn't bounce back as much? Then again I don't know what your concept vehicle looks like so this might not work.
Anyways, pick the CAD tool that meets your needs now, upgrade as needed, because it usually costs the same in the end.
Maybe, you could post some pictures as the vehicle progresses?
Tem
laura*  
#14 Posted : Wednesday, October 14, 2009 1:00:14 AM(UTC)
laura*

Rank: Junior Member

Joined: 9/21/2009(UTC)
Posts: 16

Originally Posted by: ttrw Go to Quoted Post
......cardboard.......



....definitely cardboard, .......or maybe foam?


OK then, will you hold eight to ten car windshields in the air for me as I check if they can be arranged to make a facsimile of a sphere? Of course you'll have to keep holding them all day as I shop for just the right windshields.

Originally Posted by: ttrw Go to Quoted Post
Okay, I have a suggestion, why not get on the Rhino for OS X beta bandwagon?


Expiring downloads requiring repeated downloading. A final seat price that'll effectively leave my data locked up and inaccessible.

Originally Posted by: ttrw Go to Quoted Post
I don't think McNeel will be charging for at least another year.


My project is probably at least a two year project.


I visited the Cheetah3D web site. It looks like Shark LT + Cheetah3D might meet my needs better than Shark FX.


Originally Posted by: Tem Go to Quoted Post
Maybe, you could rotate the structures out in front by 45 degrees to deflect the light some so that it doesn't bounce back as much? Then again I don't know what your concept vehicle looks like so this might not work.


The structure in front will move. The definition of "front" is also not fixed.

Originally Posted by: Tem Go to Quoted Post
Anyways, pick the CAD tool that meets your needs now, upgrade as needed, because it usually costs the same in the end.


I found a lonely neglected LiTtle Shark out in the Nevada desert at a real good price. It was probably from a defunct computer store. If I end up having to buy a different version, I won't feel bad about paying a second time. The post office says this Shark first visited the San Jose Sharks, and then swam to me. "Swam" is quite literally the word to use as it arrived during an "out of season" deluge of rain.

I think I have it installed, except there's a problem of some sort as I'll detail in a different post.
ttrw  
#15 Posted : Wednesday, October 14, 2009 3:05:00 AM(UTC)
ttrw

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Originally Posted by: laura* Go to Quoted Post
OK then, will you hold eight to ten car windshields in the air for me as I check if they can be arranged to make a facsimile of a sphere? Of course you'll have to keep holding them all day as I shop for just the right windshields.


I was being serious about cardboard, if you use something called "scale". Yes, quite right, if you make a model at 1:1, it will be the same size of the real thing, but if you model at 1:10, or 1:100, you can model a complete building in a small sized package, that's a lot cheaper than trying to push a load of windscreens around using lorries (trucks to you americans!), and you lower your carbon foot print (if you believe all that stuff too, which if you are going to Burning Man, you probably will ;) ).

Originally Posted by: laura* Go to Quoted Post
Expiring downloads requiring repeated downloading. A final seat price that'll effectively leave my data locked up and inaccessible.


Not if you export your models to OBJ- which is read my most (if not all?) other CAD modellers. You could even export using SAT, or DWG (which will retain your dimensions).

Originally Posted by: laura* Go to Quoted Post
My project is probably at least a two year project.


Great! You will probably have raised the money to buy the software by then! :D

Originally Posted by: laura* Go to Quoted Post
I visited the Cheetah3D web site. It looks like Shark LT + Cheetah3D might meet my needs better than Shark FX.


Have a look at SketchUp before you buy Cheetah3D. Cheetah has one MAJOR drawback, in that it doesn't use any regular measurement units. It works with something called "unit", but this is not based on any type of standard measurement- like inches or centimetres. That makes Cheetah completely useless for anything other than rendering, or animation based modelling within the application itself. (Talk about being "locked into a system", well you're totally locked in with C3D).

Originally Posted by: laura* Go to Quoted Post
I found a lonely neglected LiTtle Shark out in the Nevada desert at a real good price. It was probably from a defunct computer store. If I end up having to buy a different version, I won't feel bad about paying a second time. The post office says this Shark first visited the San Jose Sharks, and then swam to me. "Swam" is quite literally the word to use as it arrived during an "out of season" deluge of rain.

I think I have it installed, except there's a problem of some sort as I'll detail in a different post.


It's probably an old version, which you will have to pay more for just to get it to the current version. The old versions are pretty buggy. But a good find nethertheless. :)


Good luck!
laura*  
#16 Posted : Wednesday, October 14, 2009 4:04:20 AM(UTC)
laura*

Rank: Junior Member

Joined: 9/21/2009(UTC)
Posts: 16

Originally Posted by: ttrw Go to Quoted Post
It's probably an old version, which you will have to pay more for just to get it to the current version. The old versions are pretty buggy. But a good find nethertheless. :)


Considering that there's been only one major release of Shark LT, it can't be an old version. (Although it might not be the most current build.)

BTW, the box says v5. The error message says 5.5.
ttrw  
#17 Posted : Wednesday, October 14, 2009 4:22:21 AM(UTC)
ttrw

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I'm pretty convinced that Shark (LT?) never worked on Tiger. This is due mainly, if I remember, to the ACIS kernel. You need to contact Tim directly, as you will be waiting for ages here.

[email protected]

good luck :)
Eberhard  
#18 Posted : Wednesday, October 14, 2009 5:08:44 AM(UTC)
Eberhard

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Originally Posted by: ttrw Go to Quoted Post
I'm pretty convinced that Shark (LT?) never worked on Tiger. This is due mainly, if I remember, to the ACIS kernel.


Incorrect. (see other post)

Eberhard
ttrw  
#19 Posted : Wednesday, October 14, 2009 5:11:57 AM(UTC)
ttrw

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Good! We have an answer. :D
posh.de  
#20 Posted : Wednesday, October 14, 2009 5:45:16 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: ttrw Go to Quoted Post
Not if you export your models to OBJ- which is read my most (if not all?) other CAD modellers. You could even export using SAT, or DWG (which will retain your dimensions).

[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obj"]OBJ[/URL] is a mesh based, i.e. triangulated 3D format for a data exchange mainly with render & raytracing apps., don't use it with 3D CAx apps. if you can use:

Acis SAT or STEP or IGES is for exchanging NURBS based (= exact) data with 3D CAx apps.

DXF/DWG is for transfering 2D data to 2D CAD systems.


Originally Posted by: ttrw Go to Quoted Post
It works with something called "unit", but this is not based on any type of standard measurement- like inches or centimetres.

same for ACAD, the unit is defined by the user inputting in meters or millimeters, therefore importing the dimensionless DXF/DWG format the used user unit needs to be known.

hth,
Norbert
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