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3D Milling from CU (#207)
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jol  
#21 Posted : Thursday, May 10, 2007 10:38:00 PM(UTC)
jol

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MeshCAM is a really clean, simple app .. & the guy is very helpful. I have no way of knowing yet where its' limitations lie however. If anyone with a bit more knowledge than me has had a play with MeshCAM, do pass on your opinion. He thinks it would be suitable for a mix of 2D & 3D at my level

For purely 2D work though, he's recommending SheetCAM at $150 or the more limited AceConverter which is free

So, stupid question time ... If these $150 apps can produce reasonable g-code for a cutter to follow .. what does Gibbs or Mastercam give you for between $7k & $15k ?
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victorf57  
#22 Posted : Friday, May 11, 2007 7:25:40 PM(UTC)
victorf57

Rank: Member

Joined: 3/24/2007(UTC)
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I do have sheetcam.
I have limited cnc experience, but from I have learned so far
sheetcam is super easy to use.
Support is 2nd to none there is a super active group for it.
new features and updates constantly.
if you want to play with it he will send you a 60 day trial.
hope this is helpful
victor
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tmay  
#23 Posted : Saturday, May 12, 2007 5:08:49 AM(UTC)
tmay

Rank: Senior Member

Joined: 2/21/2007(UTC)
Posts: 278
jol wrote:
MeshCAM is a really clean, simple app .. & the guy is very helpful. I have no way of knowing yet where its' limitations lie however. If anyone with a bit more knowledge than me has had a play with MeshCAM, do pass on your opinion. He thinks it would be suitable for a mix of 2D & 3D at my level

For purely 2D work though, he's recommending SheetCAM at $150 or the more limited AceConverter which is free

So, stupid question time ... If these $150 apps can produce reasonable g-code for a cutter to follow .. what does Gibbs or Mastercam give you for between $7k & $15k ?


Reliably accurate surfaces, and generally faster creation, verification, postprocessing and machining. For a production environment, money in high end packages is well spent, but you are correct that those packages are technical overkill for the day to day 2 1/2 D stuff I generally do. Still, I would argue that the extra cost eliminates a lot of headaches, especially for critical projects that come up (like cutting an expensive piece of material into a mold or mult-iaxis machining), and the productivity generally pays for itself.

Once you have paid for the package (and this is true for mid-range and high end MCAD as well), you generally have the option to pay for maintenance, which provides technical support, updates and upgrades. A good rule of thumb is that maintenance is 10% to 20% of the original cost.

Whenever I look at adding on software now, the second thing I ask of the vendor after price, is what the yearly maintenance cost is. Once I have paid for the software, I see the yearly maintenance as overhead, which for my GibbsCAM (surfacing, multi-axis mill, and lathe), is a little over $2k per year.

tom
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lebeau  
#24 Posted : Wednesday, May 16, 2007 11:37:40 AM(UTC)
lebeau

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Joined: 2/21/2007(UTC)
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I haver done a little research on this a while ago and I was really impressed with madcam running in Rhino. If you own any other cam program you can get madcam for free. Rhino is not that expensive either.

If you search you can find movies demonstrating it and it looks pretty nice. I haven't used it myself though.

Mark
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norbertsf  
#25 Posted : Thursday, May 17, 2007 2:21:24 AM(UTC)
norbertsf

Rank: Senior Member

Joined: 4/10/2007(UTC)
Posts: 116
I've just within the last 2 weeks been trying to wrap my head around the workflow between using ViaCAD and then getting the 3d info to a CNC machine. It is a learning experience!
I've been researching the software (all PC), and most start @ $2k and go to $20K...wow.
And in the forums that I've visited there seems to be no real consenus on which is the best. (tho everyone has their specific needs).

My need has been trying to understand how you get the 3D file that is so carfefully modeled to the CAM software and then generating the G-Code to run the CNC machine (Hurco).

Are tool paths hard to create?(in the less expensive software?)

We currently have an older fellow who runs the CNC machines "old school" (a lot of manual input ). It's time to change that.

It seems alot of the packages are including the capability of actually "building" the 3D model inside the package and this seems to add to the cost significantly. If you are already using CU,Pro/E etc. I think you can get by without such features? And adding 3,4, or 5 axis gets pricey.

The link below sounds great but Gibbs is expensive! (read description)
Says it reads "in CAD data in other solid formats, such as this ACIS file, or CATIA V4 or V5, Pro/ENGINEER, and STEP AP203 or AP214"
http://www.gibbscam.com/solutions/solids-import.shtml#

Seems like Esprit supports NURBS also:
http://www.chicagocadcam.com/products/3dmilling.html

as does MAstercam:
http://www.mastercam.com/Products/Solids/Default.aspx

Wouldn't this mean NURBS surfaces are preserved and not faceted?

My 2 cents, and I'll keep following this usefull thread.

Norbert
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jol  
#26 Posted : Thursday, May 17, 2007 6:18:52 AM(UTC)
jol

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Norbert

Some good questions !

Seems to me .. CAM is a shrouded in smoke & mirrors and is ripe for a WYSIWYG solution ! There is also no Mac solution .. somebody is going to make a good living when they do a Mac product

In CAM, I sense a lot of people are preserving their domain / knowledge. There are possibly an army of people employed to do this stuff .. so they need it to look like rocket science (bit like PC tech support)

No, from what I can see .. and for no reason I can understand .. toolpaths are made by cutting paths through faceted data .. producing squillions of straight lines and arcs that a tool can follow. Even if your CAM software accepts nurbs data .. as far as I can see .. it gets faceted

In researching this topic, my best bet so far is MeshCAM for budget 3 axis 3D stuff at $150

It ain't sophistocated .. but it does 90% of what 'I' would need for 1% of the cost

It's simple & elegent and the developer is really responsive

The UI is simple .. kinda like the RolandDG bundled software Modela4

It's dead easy to produce basic roughing and finishing toolpaths for 3 axis stuff and very quick .. even for quite complex stuff. There's some good reading in their downloadable manual .. which explains very clearly how toolpath software does it's thing. Note: I have cut nothing so far from MeshCAM and thus cannot verify that it actually works

If it's no good .. or lacking features .. heck I'd rather waste $150 than $15,000 .. at least whilst getting started

The next one that makes any sense to me seems to be Visual Mill .. this is $1000 for a hobbled version .. $4000 unhobbled

Other things I've learned:

- nobody can truly tell you why one high end CAM is better than another
- they're all really expensive
- CAM softwares associated with CAD programs like SolidWorks & Rhino are more business integrations .. less functional integrations
- everybody thinks their choice is better than anyone elses (just like CAD)
- all the high end tools look like an arse to use
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jol  
#27 Posted : Thursday, May 17, 2007 6:21:17 AM(UTC)
jol

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Regarding CAM & Mac ..

.. There's another interesting thread here

http://www.macintouch.com/reade...ports/cad/topic3308.html

Be warned though .. it makes sad reading !!

Keep theh info coming guys .. thanks to everyone for your input
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jol  
#28 Posted : Thursday, May 17, 2007 6:25:53 AM(UTC)
jol

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By the way .. for anybody exporting STL files .. take note

CU4 SP3 and below has a bug in the STL facet export dialog .. meaning that far too much data is exported. Your toolpaths with therefor take many hours instead of a few minutes

If exporting STLs .. mesh FIRST using Edit>Change Object Type

THEN Export via the STL export option

This is a work around .. Tim promises a fix will be with us soon !
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tmay  
#29 Posted : Thursday, May 17, 2007 7:32:33 AM(UTC)
tmay

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Joined: 2/21/2007(UTC)
Posts: 278
This is the mold making product.

http://www.ncgraphics.net/products/toolmaker/index.html

This is a mode that I fine interesting, and probably why I won't be able to afford to add Pro/Toolmaker (as PTC will call it) to my PRO/E bundle.

http://www.ncgraphics.net/produ...atures/page7.html#uvfine

It is definitely easier to justify an high end package in a multiple machine environment.
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norbertsf  
#30 Posted : Thursday, May 17, 2007 9:13:47 AM(UTC)
norbertsf

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Joined: 4/10/2007(UTC)
Posts: 116
jol,

Yes, there is a certain shroud of mystery in this area for sure.
Can't even get a price (list) for most products without calling a reseller!
And I've read on some CNC forums of resellers dropping the price a couple grand to have them go with there package.

I have a feeling they are all very similar.

I'll give the MeshCAM a try....if it has a Demo, and I can get a PC or Virtual PC! (Still on a G5).

Regarding the faceting:
The photos/final products produced in the link look smoother than a baby's but. With faceting? It's not visible. How is that done?
http://www.chicagocadcam.com/products/3dmilling.html

Norbert
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KurtF  
#31 Posted : Thursday, May 17, 2007 11:00:57 AM(UTC)
KurtF

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Joined: 2/17/2007(UTC)
Posts: 16
The same reason you don't see faceting when rendering out stills or animations, the software interpolates and smooths over all the polygons. In rendering, it's a calculation of what the light should appear to be, in machining it's a gentle curve over the surface.
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lebeau  
#32 Posted : Thursday, May 17, 2007 11:10:14 AM(UTC)
lebeau

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I too would like to check out mesh cam. I think this could work well with the scanner I have.

Mark
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jol  
#33 Posted : Thursday, May 17, 2007 12:52:40 PM(UTC)
jol

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Norbert .. as Kurt says .. the finer you make the facets, the smoother your output - like with rendering

I've been doing a project over the last couple of weeks with model4 on a Roland machine .. and since my knowledge is so poor .. I unfortunately made toolpaths with massive facets running through it - you certainly see it in the output.

Much handwork to be done - which kinda negates the point of CNC. I'm pretty annoyed about it, but that's the nature of learning curves

Be great to get some collective knowledge going here, both high end and cheap 'n' chearful

By the way, I told a local high end CNC guy I was never going to pay 20K (NZ) for a program that made lines .. and he immediately dropped 5K. This market is whacked !!!

I think the association Rhino has made in endorsing a cheap CAM product will win them a good chunk of the market

Likewise, when SolidWorks people buy CAM .. they buy the one that is endorsed by SW (not necessarily cos it's the best)

I wish Punch had the forsight to establish such an association .. perhaps even to support a port to OSX .. I've no doubt it would pay back as there is literally nobody even trying to produce toolpaths for Mac
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lebeau  
#34 Posted : Thursday, May 17, 2007 2:19:30 PM(UTC)
lebeau

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As I said before I would really like to see this in CU. It, to me, would further justify the bigger price jump of CU


I wonder what it would take to get the mad cam creator to do something for CU. At least collaborate.


Mark
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API  
#35 Posted : Thursday, May 17, 2007 3:55:19 PM(UTC)
API

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Joined: 2/19/2007(UTC)
Posts: 129
We use GibbsCAM and have since it was on a Mac. We've exported everything from Vellum Solids thru CU to it with good success. Everything we do is a solid at this point, even things that could be done 2D. Gibbs does a pretty good job at recognizing the part. Its almost point-click-rough, point-click-finish. Tool paths are OK. I hear they are supposed to get better as they move to machining mesh data like VX.
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norbertsf  
#36 Posted : Thursday, May 17, 2007 4:00:16 PM(UTC)
norbertsf

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Joined: 4/10/2007(UTC)
Posts: 116
API,

Currently Gibbs cam has no OSX version. You are running it on OS9?
Do they still sell it?

Norbert
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jol  
#37 Posted : Thursday, May 17, 2007 4:06:21 PM(UTC)
jol

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Patrick

This idea that you always do your 2D profile cuts from Solids is interesting -- I like this

Provided you work in 3D like ourselves, it makes a lot of sense :

- it rules out possibly needing a second app for cutting profiles
- it simplifies and removes error possibilities .. as solid / meshed data automatically calculates the side it must cut on. With cutting from linework - you have to specify where the cutter goes a
- you also don't need to specify where 'bridges' are .. just build it into your solid in CU
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jol  
#38 Posted : Thursday, May 17, 2007 4:10:35 PM(UTC)
jol

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MadCAM looks interesting

I take it you cannot use it without Rhino ?

I see also Rhino have made a marketing deal with Maxwell .. those guys are smart !
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tmay  
#39 Posted : Thursday, May 17, 2007 5:17:31 PM(UTC)
tmay

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Joined: 2/21/2007(UTC)
Posts: 278
API wrote:
We use GibbsCAM and have since it was on a Mac. We've exported everything from Vellum Solids thru CU to it with good success. Everything we do is a solid at this point, even things that could be done 2D. Gibbs does a pretty good job at recognizing the part. Its almost point-click-rough, point-click-finish. Tool paths are OK. I hear they are supposed to get better as they move to machining mesh data like VX.


They are supposed to be demoing the new 3D surfacing at Easttech. I expect to see it later this fall.

There isn't any mac support anymore. I suppose that you could buy from somebody that has Virtual Gibbs 5.1 and a key and run it under OS 9, but it is really, really slow compared to the current version and I don't even think that the early SolidSurfacer was all that great.

I may try and run under Bootcamp at some point, but I need to get some hardware support for the parallel security key first.
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victorf57  
#40 Posted : Thursday, May 17, 2007 6:13:24 PM(UTC)
victorf57

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Joined: 3/24/2007(UTC)
Posts: 58
lebeau wrote:
I haver done a little research on this a while ago and I was really impressed with madcam running in Rhino. If you own any other cam program you can get madcam for free. Rhino is not that expensive either.

Mark

Does anyone know how to get it for free??
Is there a link or any information?
Thanks
victor
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