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Craig  
#1 Posted : Thursday, April 14, 2011 11:14:22 AM(UTC)
Craig

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A couple of years ago I came up with a self releasing ramp clutch to disconnect an engine from the dynometer. I was contracting at a UK university and the idea was turned into a Msc student project and worked out very well.

I actually made the clutch but the student who did the modeling came to me about how to model the ramp. I tried to explain the shape to him but time was short so we went with a simplified model.

The actual manufacture was no problem as it is just a 10mm slot drill with a 1mm rad plunged to depth and then spiraled out on a cnc mill.

I am redesigning the clutch myself so have come up against the same problem the student did.

I have done a rough ramp which can be seen in the attached jpg, Is it impractical to expect to be able to model a perfect ramp, as a different part of the cutter is in contact with the surface at all times?

Any suggestions would be much appreciated.
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RampProblem.jpg (19kb) downloaded 4 time(s).

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dnns  
#2 Posted : Friday, April 15, 2011 8:04:41 AM(UTC)
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If I understand right, you want to model it as it would actually be cut? Seems like a complex surface. Like the stepped cut pics attached? (I just built the 'tool' and duplicated it 50x along a path). If this is what you're looking to do, I'd guess you could derive some guide curves from a few key positions and create the surfaces from that.

-dennis
dnns attached the following image(s):
rampShade.jpg (48kb) downloaded 4 time(s).
rampWire.jpg (70kb) downloaded 4 time(s).

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Craig  
#3 Posted : Saturday, April 16, 2011 4:18:55 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: dnns Go to Quoted Post
If I understand right, you want to model it as it would actually be cut? Seems like a complex surface. Like the stepped cut pics attached? (I just built the 'tool' and duplicated it 50x along a path). If this is what you're looking to do, I'd guess you could derive some guide curves from a few key positions and create the surfaces from that.

-dennis


Very good solution, thanks, I have tried a number of different ways and also thought about using the tool path but what I am trying to do is find the modelling way to do it.

I have been very close but have problems with the take off area as the rad of the tool makes it very complicated. It's kind of a paradox, if the tool started at a position through the part in fresh air it would be an easy surface.
zumer  
#4 Posted : Saturday, April 16, 2011 6:52:36 AM(UTC)
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For a curved ramp surface, as if the flywheel were mounted on a leadscrew and being offered to a slot cutter, the modeling method would be the same, ie a subtractive solid created by a circle representing the tool's face path swept along a rail representing the lead of the machining setup. The radius of the tool will give a fillet, which will be elliptical because of the lead.
zumer attached the following image(s):
ramp slot milling subtraction.PNG (28kb) downloaded 4 time(s).

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mlochala  
#5 Posted : Saturday, April 16, 2011 10:21:58 AM(UTC)
mlochala

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I couldn't resist an attempt at modeling this device. Of course, I don't know any of your dimensions or specs, so I had to rely on eyesight calculations.

My approach was to model the overall piece and then model cutouts for the ramps. They look something like this:

UserPostedImage

Here, positioned on the model:

UserPostedImage

Finally, after final positioning, I used the Solid Subtract tool:

UserPostedImage

Here is a close up of the finished ramp:

UserPostedImage

Is this sort of what you are looking to do?
jol  
#6 Posted : Saturday, April 16, 2011 3:13:05 PM(UTC)
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I understood the question was more - how would you cut a smooth gradient on the mill - the answer being with a 'ball-end finisher' I guess - or alternatively some clever-axis cut
zumer  
#7 Posted : Saturday, April 16, 2011 5:47:52 PM(UTC)
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The ramp is curved if the tool's lead axis is parallel to the flywheel's. The ramp can be machined with a planar floor if the tool's lead is perpendicular to the flywheel's lead helix. If the clutch element's are balls, the contact area is instantaneous, if they're rollers, there's a contact line that will need a flat floor. This type of clutch gives a theoretically-analogue takeup, but it's actually dependent on contact pressure. Sprag clutches are more reliable, but have a degree-increment step between takeup points. A US company called Epilogics patented a notionally-sprag type of clutch that works in the same plane as yours, that they call "mechanical diode". It's simpler to machine, takes immense torque throughput with less endthrust, and can be designed with sprag-and-receiving-slot arrangements that use Vernier-style relationships to make the takeup increment angle minute, almost-analogue.

http://www.epilogics.com/md/index.htm
mlochala  
#8 Posted : Sunday, April 17, 2011 1:11:08 PM(UTC)
mlochala

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I guess I misunderstood. I thought he was asking how to model the ramps.

It is my understanding that during the CAM process, whatever bit that is being used has to follow the surface of the 3D model, right?
zumer  
#9 Posted : Sunday, April 17, 2011 5:17:57 PM(UTC)
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Almost. The question here is how to model the ramps so they'll have the same geometry as a simple manual or CNC mill setup will produce.
billbedford  
#10 Posted : Monday, April 18, 2011 2:30:49 AM(UTC)
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Then you have to take a section of the tool that is normal to the slope of the ramp. Use this to produce a one rail spiral sweep and subtract the resulting solid from the clutch plate.
billbedford attached the following image(s):
tool 1.jpg (19kb) downloaded 4 time(s).
tool 2.jpg (30kb) downloaded 4 time(s).

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blowlamp  
#11 Posted : Monday, April 18, 2011 3:58:30 AM(UTC)
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Because it's cutting a ramp, the last part of the cut is done by the back edge of the tool and that needs to be reflected in the shape.
Here's my (hurried) go at getting it.

http://www.screencast.com/users...6-49a6-8687-7b10b54bdf03


Martin.
Craig  
#12 Posted : Monday, April 18, 2011 4:23:47 AM(UTC)
Craig

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:) This is about modeling the surface and nothing else as the machining and principle are no problem, the ramp pin follows the route of the cutter as it exactly the same shape as the cutter.

The cutter is plunged to a depth and then takes off from the flat area it has created, the ramp starts immediately and this is where the surface gets complicated.

Have attached the latest assembly, the ramp is close to being perfect but not quite there yet.
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Craig  
#13 Posted : Monday, April 18, 2011 4:38:40 AM(UTC)
Craig

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Originally Posted by: blowlamp Go to Quoted Post
Because it's cutting a ramp, the last part of the cut is done by the back edge of the tool and that needs to be reflected in the shape.
Here's my (hurried) go at getting it.

http://www.screencast.com/users...6-49a6-8687-7b10b54bdf03


Martin.


Not true, as the z axis is moving in the positive direction the back edge does not come into play, if it was moving in a negative direction then both sides would cut.
blowlamp  
#14 Posted : Monday, April 18, 2011 4:58:09 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Craig Go to Quoted Post
Not true, as the z axis is moving in the positive direction the back edge does not come into play, if it was moving in a negative direction then both sides would cut.


The important point is that regardless of which direction the Z axis is moving while it cuts, the cross sectional shape of the ramp will be defined by the 'edge' I created from the bullnosed tool that I mocked up in the video, as that is the last part of the tool to touch the ramp.

Martin.
billbedford  
#15 Posted : Monday, April 18, 2011 6:16:23 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Craig Go to Quoted Post
:) This is about modeling the surface and nothing else as the machining and principle are no problem, the ramp pin follows the route of the cutter as it exactly the same shape as the cutter.


Yes, but the line of contact between the pin and the groove is on a plane that is normal* to the slope of the groove. Modelling the grove by taking the profile of the tool will give the wrong groove profile because the leading edge of the tool is ahead of the widest part as it cuts.

*I'm not sure that this is exactly true, it would be if the tool end was spherical, but for a rounded cylinder the profile you want may be defined by a plane that passes through the tangent point where the leading edge of the tool meets the slope of the groove and the transverse diameter at the bottom of the cylindrical section of the tool.
Craig  
#16 Posted : Tuesday, April 19, 2011 2:43:15 AM(UTC)
Craig

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Originally Posted by: billbedford Go to Quoted Post
Yes, but the line of contact between the pin and the groove is on a plane that is normal* to the slope of the groove. Modelling the grove by taking the profile of the tool will give the wrong groove profile because the leading edge of the tool is ahead of the widest part as it cuts.

*I'm not sure that this is exactly true, it would be if the tool end was spherical, but for a rounded cylinder the profile you want may be defined by a plane that passes through the tangent point where the leading edge of the tool meets the slope of the groove and the transverse diameter at the bottom of the cylindrical section of the tool.


So we return to my original question, is it too complicated to model perfectly? viewed from a groove point of view and not a tool one?
zumer  
#17 Posted : Tuesday, April 19, 2011 4:57:18 AM(UTC)
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Martin's solution is accurate.
Craig  
#18 Posted : Tuesday, April 19, 2011 8:36:28 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: zumer Go to Quoted Post
Martin's solution is accurate.


It is accurate for the ramp, the real problem is the relationship between the flat and the ramp which his demo does not adress.

I have what I think is a pretty accurate surface, I will post it later as I still have to check it. It involves the 10mm dia with the 1mm corner rad, the 8mm flat at the bottom of the cutter and a surface that intersects the 8mm flat and the bottom of the ramp.
blowlamp  
#19 Posted : Tuesday, April 19, 2011 8:53:41 AM(UTC)
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I haven't tried this, but can't you make a copy of the tool and turn it into surfaces and position it at the bottom end of the ramp - then remove and/or trim any unneeded parts?

**Edit** Demo file added.

Martin.
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Craig  
#20 Posted : Wednesday, April 20, 2011 2:53:58 AM(UTC)
Craig

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Originally Posted by: blowlamp Go to Quoted Post
I haven't tried this, but can't you make a copy of the tool and turn it into surfaces and position it at the bottom end of the ramp - then remove and/or trim any unneeded parts?

**Edit** Demo file added.

Martin.


Can't open your file. I have tried a number of things and thought I was pretty close until I ran the simulation on my cam system, the exit now becomes the problem!:(

Have attached what I think is pretty close except for the exit.
Craig attached the following image(s):
SolidView.JPG (19kb) downloaded 4 time(s).
SolidTop.JPG (18kb) downloaded 4 time(s).
SideView.jpg (15kb) downloaded 4 time(s).
CamScreenshot.JPG (20kb) downloaded 4 time(s).
Bottom.jpg (14kb) downloaded 4 time(s).

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