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Steve.M  
#1 Posted : Sunday, June 14, 2009 7:15:21 AM(UTC)
Steve.M

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I will post about this again.

A simple 2 rail sweep of a rectangle on 2 Int splines

01: the rectangle and 2 rails
02: the result. Unacceptable.
03: I moved one of the rails to to top corner.
04/05: the result, again Unacceptable

I did have maintain height set.
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billbedford  
#2 Posted : Sunday, June 14, 2009 8:12:29 AM(UTC)
billbedford

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Originally Posted by: Steve.M Go to Quoted Post
I will post about this again.

A simple 2 rail sweep of a rectangle on 2 Int splines


This looks like a drawing artifact. What are the sections like?

But why are you using a two rail sweep, and why use splines?
Steve.M  
#3 Posted : Sunday, June 14, 2009 8:41:58 AM(UTC)
Steve.M

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Originally Posted by: billbedford Go to Quoted Post
This looks like a drawing artifact. What are the sections like?
No, it is not drawing artifacts, it is a bad sweep. What sections?
Originally Posted by: billbedford Go to Quoted Post

But why are you using a two rail sweep, and why use splines?
It is a simple example. I am using splines because they give better results.

I have made another similar example, but have used 2 trimmed Ellipse:-

01: the cross section (a rectangle) and 2 trimmed ellipse for rails
02: the result
03 the model exported into another app


EDIT:

Does the mac version not have these problems?

.
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Steve.M  
#4 Posted : Sunday, June 14, 2009 9:05:38 AM(UTC)
Steve.M

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Another 2 rail sweep.

01. A rectangle on 2 rails.
02: The result.
Steve.M attached the following image(s):
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ianjkirby  
#5 Posted : Sunday, June 14, 2009 6:08:48 PM(UTC)
ianjkirby

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Hi Steve,
I have not used 2-rail sweeps until now, so I thought I would have a go, to both learn something, and see if your problems repeat for me.
I tried to 2-rail sweep a rectangle (form the rectangle tool), along two parallel arcs. In the first instance, I could not select the rectangle as the shape to sweep. When I redrew the rectangle as 4 distinct lines, then I could select them. They swept ok. I then tried using interp splines as the rails, and managed to get two splines, non-parallel, with different number of control points in each, and the sweep worked fine for me, although it had a lot of height variations. I re-did it selecting option for maintain height, and got what I thought I should have got, so I have to say from my brief effort, there seems to be no problem when doing 2-rail sweeps on a mac. I run Leopard 10.5.7, and vc2d3d build 786.
Regards, Ian.
Ian Kirby
Wollongong Australia
ianjkirby  
#6 Posted : Sunday, June 14, 2009 11:43:08 PM(UTC)
ianjkirby

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Steve,
If you would like to send me (or post) your file with just the rectangle and trimmed ellipse rails, I will see if I can get a result on my mac system. :o
Regards, Ian.
Ian Kirby
Wollongong Australia
Steve.M  
#7 Posted : Monday, June 15, 2009 4:43:21 AM(UTC)
Steve.M

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Hi Ian,

Thanks for checking this on the Mac.

Attached is a file with a rectangle(grouped lines) and 2 trimmed Ellipse for rails, with the result of a solid sweep.

Changing the Rails to different Types (B-spline/Int spline) does change the result, but it should be more consistent as changing the type does bring its own problems with the spline moving.



- Steve
File Attachment(s):
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billbedford  
#8 Posted : Monday, June 15, 2009 5:21:46 AM(UTC)
billbedford

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Originally Posted by: Steve.M Go to Quoted Post
No, it is not drawing artifacts, it is a bad sweep. What sections?

cross sections through the completed solid
Quote:

It is a simple example. I am using splines because they give better results.

For spline to give a 'better' result you would have to arrange the spline points on each curve to be in pairs, radial to each other.

For a simple parallel sided solid a one rail sweep will always be better, because the software will calculate the points on the corner curve to be on a plane radial to the sweep rail.

OTOH using beziers seems to produce a more acceptable outcome.
Quote:

Does the mac version not have these problems?

Why should it? the code base is the same only the display is different.
billbedford attached the following image(s):
1rail sweep.jpg (116kb) downloaded 5 time(s).
2rail-bezier.jpg (126kb) downloaded 5 time(s).

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ianjkirby  
#9 Posted : Monday, June 15, 2009 6:02:18 AM(UTC)
ianjkirby

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Hi Steve,
I only have vc2d3d, and while I can open your file, I can do nothing with it. Can you post just the original (rectangular?) shape, and the original rails, please?
I actually had a problem after my last post. I moved just two random points on one of the splines, and the sweep failed, saying "self intersecting or cusping surface found", about which I have no idea! Subsequent attempts have led to similar failures, so I must assume that my first spline just happened to fall inside some degree of acceptability to the process, but I have no clue how to do this deliberately. I will keep trying, not because I use them, just to rise to the challenge - if in fact I can!!
Regards, Ian.
Ian Kirby
Wollongong Australia
Steve.M  
#10 Posted : Monday, June 15, 2009 6:07:59 AM(UTC)
Steve.M

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Originally Posted by: billbedford Go to Quoted Post
For spline to give a 'better' result you would have to arrange the spline points on each curve to be in pairs, radial to each other.
Well that is certainly not needed in any other Cad system I use, in fact I have no need to start changing the types(spline types) of rails used at all.
Originally Posted by: billbedford Go to Quoted Post

For a simple parallel sided solid a one rail sweep will always be better, because the software will calculate the points on the corner curve to be on a plane radial to the sweep rail.
For the output for this simple example yes, but the point was not to make this simple shape, it was to show the problems.
Originally Posted by: billbedford Go to Quoted Post

OTOH using beziers seems to produce a more acceptable outcome.
If you find the output from B-splines in this example to be acceptable, then you are either getting a different output, or you dont mind bad output.

pic01: shows the output from b-splines.
pic02: a cross section cut on that solid
pic03: a view directly on the section.
Steve.M attached the following image(s):
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02.jpg (31kb) downloaded 5 time(s).
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billbedford  
#11 Posted : Monday, June 15, 2009 6:10:55 AM(UTC)
billbedford

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Originally Posted by: billbedford Go to Quoted Post
For a simple parallel sided solid a one rail sweep will always be better, because the software will calculate the points on the corner curve to be on a plane radial to the sweep rail.


Further to this. If the two rails are not parallel then there are no problems.

So the rule is -- If you want a swept solid with parallel faces, use a one rail sweep, otherwise use a two rail sweep.
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ianjkirby  
#12 Posted : Monday, June 15, 2009 6:11:28 AM(UTC)
ianjkirby

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I may have an additional problem! When I click on the 'OK' button in the windoid telling me there is a 'self-intersecting or cusping surface', VC hangs, and the only way out is to force quit. Surely this should not happen, imo.
Regards, Ian.
Ian Kirby
Wollongong Australia
Steve.M  
#13 Posted : Monday, June 15, 2009 6:13:37 AM(UTC)
Steve.M

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Originally Posted by: ianjkirby Go to Quoted Post
Can you post just the original (rectangular?) shape, and the original rails, please?


Hi Ian,


Regards,

- Steve
File Attachment(s):
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Steve.M  
#14 Posted : Monday, June 15, 2009 6:30:17 AM(UTC)
Steve.M

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Originally Posted by: billbedford Go to Quoted Post
Further to this. If the two rails are not parallel then there are no problems.


It depends on what type of splines are used. There is no consistency.

- Steve
ianjkirby  
#15 Posted : Monday, June 15, 2009 6:40:50 AM(UTC)
ianjkirby

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Okay, this time it worked. I started from scratch, drew two random int. splines in x-y plane, with different number of control points. Drew a rectangle of 4 lines in x-z plane, using the initial ends of the splines as one side of the rectangle. Selected 2-rail sweep, followed the instructions, and got a mostly predictable result. The swept solid did not go to the end of either spline, seeming to stop one point short; I have no idea why it stopped where it did. I have almost zero experience with splines, so if anyone can explain what is happening, simply, I would be happy to read that.
:o
Regards, Ian.
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Ian Kirby
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ianjkirby  
#16 Posted : Monday, June 15, 2009 6:53:38 AM(UTC)
ianjkirby

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I'm sorry Steve,
When I imported your file, there was only the workplane symbol on screen. When I did 'select all', your rectangle and splines showed in the default selected colour, but if I tried to do anything at all, they simply went invisible! I was unable to carry out any operation on them at all.
Again, I rather think that one should be able to swap native files like this without any such issues, or have I maybe got a setting wrong?
I'm sorry my offer to help is not actually helping very much. :confused:
Regards, Ian.
Ian Kirby
Wollongong Australia
Steve.M  
#17 Posted : Monday, June 15, 2009 7:11:42 AM(UTC)
Steve.M

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Originally Posted by: ianjkirby Go to Quoted Post
When I imported your file, there was only the workplane symbol on screen. When I did 'select all', your rectangle and splines showed in the default selected colour, but if I tried to do anything at all, they simply went invisible!


Sorry, that will be due to my having the color of the lines/splines set to white.
Select the lines/splines and change the color.


- Steve
Steve.M  
#18 Posted : Monday, June 15, 2009 7:30:08 AM(UTC)
Steve.M

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Originally Posted by: ianjkirby Go to Quoted Post
Selected 2-rail sweep, followed the instructions, and got a mostly predictable result.



Hi Ian,

The sweep you have made there is a very bad output from VC. The top profile should be the same as its base.

Using your curves I made the sweep in Rhino to show comparison:-

regards,

- Steve
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ianjkirby  
#19 Posted : Monday, June 15, 2009 7:51:03 AM(UTC)
ianjkirby

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Maybe I should stay away from splines altogether!
While 'playing' with the splines I was using as rails, when I try to select a control point I am asked to choose between the solid and a B-spline. I thought I had drawn interpolate splines! ie, I used the Interploate Spline tool to draw them!
Perhaps I should ask, what differentiates Interpolate, Control Point and Bezier splines as drawing entities?
Secondly, a line has magically appeared which has become part of my solid, and defines a new shape of the solid. See pics 4,5. It looks not unlike one of Steve's trimmed ellipses, and the solid has taken up the shape indicated by the new line. It highlights when I select the solid, and the whole solid highlights when I select the line. The original spline is still there, but is simply ignored by the solid.
I'm really getting confused now!:(
Steve, thanks for the hint about the white lines. No wonder I was having a hard time seeing them!!:rolleyes: I was successful in creating the solid from your geometry, see thumbnail below. It went cleanly following the normal steps, and looks correct, so, back to an early post, it seems to be ok on a mac.:)

Regards, Ian.
File Attachment(s):
2rail-2.vc3 (163kb) downloaded 5 time(s).
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Ian Kirby
Wollongong Australia
Steve.M  
#20 Posted : Monday, June 15, 2009 8:25:20 AM(UTC)
Steve.M

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Originally Posted by: ianjkirby Go to Quoted Post
Perhaps I should ask, what differentiates Interpolate, Control Point and Bezier splines as drawing entities?
Normally it is just (well, in other Cad systems I use) for construction purposes.
When building with control point splines only the first and last control points actually sit on the line, and it is a lot easier to make a nice smooth curve. With Int splines, all control points sit on the line, which make it easier to create splines that need to go through points already in place, with the B-splines, these again have all control points on the spline but gives you a direction vector (the little handle connected to the control points).
IN VC/shark it does appear that the different types of splines give different output when used for Guides/rails. Certainly not expected and not something I have seen before in any of the other CAD System I have used.

From the model/example you posted earlier, if you change the rails to Int-splines, then select maintain hight, then the results are more as expected.

Originally Posted by: ianjkirby Go to Quoted Post
Secondly, a line has magically appeared which has become part of my solid, and defines a new shape of the solid. See pics 4,5. It looks not unlike one of Steve's trimmed ellipses,
It may possibly be one of the curves that as been kept and reappeared when an undo is made. I have seen similar, but have not been able to repeat, and it only happens now and again. Just make sure you close down VC in between different work sessions.


Regards,

- Steve
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