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Craig  
#1 Posted : Saturday, January 30, 2016 2:25:38 AM(UTC)
Craig

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I did a quick test, a basic M10 bolt with a cap head comes in at 2.62mb with the file compacted and the history removed.
A blank solid of the same size with no details is 20kb.

Is there a way to turn complex solids into dumb solids so as to reduce the file size?
L. Banasky  
#2 Posted : Saturday, January 30, 2016 4:15:14 AM(UTC)
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Hi Craig,
Inventor uses a bitmap to show the threads on fasteners, file size 186 kb.
.SAT exported from Inventor, doesn't show threads, but is only 24.2 kb.
.SAT Imported into SharkFX9 PC, and saved as .sfx, only 18.1 kb., not bad.
I've exported large files from SharkFX9 PC to .sat, and imported into Inventor,
and they work fine, but never really paid attention to the file sizes.
Will try to remember to take note of the file sizes next time.

Larry
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Craig  
#3 Posted : Saturday, January 30, 2016 7:09:04 AM(UTC)
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Thanks Larry but this was more about reducing the size of all solids and not just threads, some programs utilize dumb solids which I think is a smart move (not an expert, just heard about it).
solidtooldesigns  
#4 Posted : Tuesday, February 9, 2016 7:01:18 PM(UTC)
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I would love if there was no history / links and if it were all dumb solids.

I think this would make for a much simpler system and would make testing / development much faster.

We could have unlimited undo / redo.

Faster save times.

Likely smaller files.

No having to wait for rebuilds.

No having to go back and fix unresolved links.

Never having to think about how things are linked.

I *much* prefer direct modelling to parametric. That being said they make it pretty easy here to wipe links / history in this software which I appreciate.
Craig  
#5 Posted : Wednesday, February 10, 2016 5:40:14 AM(UTC)
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There is no doubt that direct modelling is the future of CAD, it makes sense.
Tem  
#6 Posted : Tuesday, February 16, 2016 1:49:01 PM(UTC)
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There are a few instances where I find that parametric modeling is helpful: moving features and exact amount, such as holes, posts, ribs, and redefining radii/chamfers, although that is more feature definition and modification which are at times helpful to drive numerically?
Other wise there are many operations that could do without parametrics. However, I do appreciate being able to undo on occasion as well as some associativity, for example keeping surfaces along their edges/perimeters tangent or continuous. outside of that many features and actions out to have no history, just undo. But this is just for me. ;-)
solidtooldesigns  
#7 Posted : Tuesday, February 16, 2016 2:50:01 PM(UTC)
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I think the trick with direct modeling is to make the software user friendly/fast enough that it is faster to either make the modification on the fly or start from scratch then to go back and make the necessary modifications to existing features in the history. This isn't and won't be the case with some applications, but for many it is. For my particular line of work (dies + automated tooling) this is the case more often then not I find.

I find ViaCAD has awesome direct modelling capabilities. Just one of the great things about this software.
Craig  
#8 Posted : Wednesday, February 17, 2016 1:54:53 AM(UTC)
Craig

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Originally Posted by: Tem Go to Quoted Post
There are a few instances where I find that parametric modeling is helpful: moving features and exact amount, such as holes, posts, ribs, and redefining radii/chamfers, although that is more feature definition and modification which are at times helpful to drive numerically?
Other wise there are many operations that could do without parametrics. However, I do appreciate being able to undo on occasion as well as some associativity, for example keeping surfaces along their edges/perimeters tangent or continuous. outside of that many features and actions out to have no history, just undo. But this is just for me. ;-)


Direct modelling can do everything parametric can but it does it without the burden of a history tree.
Check out some utube videos of Keycreator and you will see that there is absolutely no need for history, you can move anything any amount.

I have not studied the subject in detail but I think direct modelling uses constraints instead of history?
So if you constrain the face of one part to the face of another and you move one of the constrained parts, the other one will update automatically.

If I understand it correctly there is no need for a history of undo because everything is real time?
solidtooldesigns  
#9 Posted : Wednesday, February 17, 2016 8:07:34 AM(UTC)
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I still think Undo is necessary. However that form of history is very different from a parametric history. While constraints and be placed on and then you can direct edit, you still have to take the time to place those constraints on. Also, I believe you can constrain using driving dimensions with KeyCreator however I do not believe you can put on condition constraints like tangency on something you are editing directly. I could be wrong though.
Craig  
#10 Posted : Wednesday, February 17, 2016 8:29:18 AM(UTC)
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Why is undo necessary?

If I move a feature on part and I want to reverse that I just return the feature to where it was. I think many of us are having a problem understanding the simplicity of direct modelling because we are so used to having a history tree.
I have thought about it and find no benefit to history when a system is real time, Keycreator has some excellent videos on utube that show the power of direct modelling.

Much of the confusion probably comes from the old way of thinking that a cube with a hole in it is a cube with a hole in it.
Whereas in direct modelling you have the cube and you have the hole, they are separate entities and can be edited however the user needs, it’s an interesting topic.

solidtooldesigns  
#11 Posted : Wednesday, February 17, 2016 8:39:59 AM(UTC)
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Undo is necessary because it is one click and you are back to where you were rather then having to re-dit which could be many clicks to get back to where you were. Massive time saver. And keeping an Undo-Redo history should not be that taxing on the system though I know I am over-simplifying this to say the least.

I have tried KeyCreator and had meetings / demonstrations with there sales. This was about 1 yr ago. I wasn't overly impressed. I gave them one of my medium difficulty punches to modify and they struggled with it. They told me they couldn't do it in the time during the demonstration. That meant too long for me. From what I understand its very good for mechanical components but it's surfacing / filleting is not the strongest. That was my take at any rate.

Edited by user Wednesday, February 17, 2016 8:47:00 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Tim Olson  
#12 Posted : Wednesday, February 17, 2016 12:51:14 PM(UTC)
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>>direct modelling uses constraints instead of history?

This is based on local operations which is independent of constraints or history. The technology was originally developed to support shelling and drafts. Offset a face, heal neighbors. Rotate a face, heal neighbors. Works great for analytic faces, more challenging when dealing with G2 NURBs.

http://blog.punchcad.com...without-history#more-220


Tim

Edited by user Wednesday, February 17, 2016 12:52:25 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Tim Olson
IMSI Design/Encore
thanks 1 user thanked Tim Olson for this useful post.
Tem on 3/3/2016(UTC)
Craig  
#13 Posted : Thursday, February 18, 2016 2:08:08 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: solidtooldesigns Go to Quoted Post
Undo is necessary because it is one click and you are back to where you were rather then having to re-dit which could be many clicks to get back to where you were. Massive time saver. And keeping an Undo-Redo history should not be that taxing on the system though I know I am over-simplifying this to say the least.

I have tried KeyCreator and had meetings / demonstrations with there sales. This was about 1 yr ago. I wasn't overly impressed. I gave them one of my medium difficulty punches to modify and they struggled with it. They told me they couldn't do it in the time during the demonstration. That meant too long for me. From what I understand its very good for mechanical components but it's surfacing / filleting is not the strongest. That was my take at any rate.


Why is undo necessary?
If I have placed 5 holes in a plate and realise the 3rd one is in the wrong place I do not use undo, I just move the 3rd hole to where I want it.
With parametric modelling there is a yesterday, a now and a tomorrow because you often have to plan ahead.
With direct modelling there is only a now, the system does not need to know where a hole used to be or where you may want to place it in the future, it only needs to know where it is now.

Think of any situation that you use undo and that undo can be corrected by simply adjusting the feature as required with real time direct modelling.
The real bonus is a lightweight system that is not being bogged down by useless information, we all have trouble understanding that undo and history is not required.

As for you not being impressed with Keycreator, you are not impressed with Solidworks and that is the finest system available apart from maybe Creo.
It all depends on what you want the system for, for myself Shark was the best system because of its speed and functionality but Keycreator is in a different league.
Craig  
#14 Posted : Thursday, February 18, 2016 2:18:03 AM(UTC)
Craig

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Originally Posted by: Tim Olson Go to Quoted Post
>>direct modelling uses constraints instead of history?

This is based on local operations which is independent of constraints or history. The technology was originally developed to support shelling and drafts. Offset a face, heal neighbors. Rotate a face, heal neighbors. Works great for analytic faces, more challenging when dealing with G2 NURBs.

http://blog.punchcad.com...without-history#more-220


Tim



It is a really interesting topic that I have not explored in depth but there is no doubt that it is the future.
As I have mentioned before, Shark has direct modelling capability as can be seen with the push pull tool but that still creates a history.
I am confused as to why people are stuck on thinking they need a history, there is absolutely no need for history at all when you have total and full control over every single feature in the model.

We do not need a history and no history means a very efficient system, this video is 6 years old and I think it shows the power of a direct modeller as far as surfaces are concerned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QO1AanCNtI

Edited by user Thursday, February 18, 2016 2:18:36 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

solidtooldesigns  
#15 Posted : Thursday, February 18, 2016 7:47:05 AM(UTC)
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I think for what I do direct modelling is best as 90% of my machine designs are simple geometry I can modify easily using direct editing tools. Even for the more complex models, I know where I'm going and what I have to do to get there. There are lots of simple components so speed/less clicks is important.

For more organic shapes where a customer may want a surface here or there to have a greater degree of continuity or where complex surface changes may be requested and there aren't as many components I can see where history based has it's advantages.
Tem  
#16 Posted : Thursday, March 3, 2016 12:22:55 PM(UTC)
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The ideas and arguments expressed on this topic are very interesting to me. Let me add that the idea of constraints seems to be needed at times, but that could be done by applying a driving dimension or by using a lock feature to stabilize or keep a feature as is. I realize this might make modeling a part confusing if those feature locks are not visually noted.
I also like the concept of associativity, that some features will move or be modified to follow the feature that they are dependent on (i.e. rounds and chamfers). Otherwise, a feature history tree makes sense only in certain scenarios. Undo is helpful if something suddenly goes awry, like accidentally moving a feature outside of the part or to the extends of the World Coordinate System, and can be moved back or unscaled to try again. OK, the dog needs to be let outside now, have a good day.
Craig  
#17 Posted : Saturday, March 5, 2016 12:50:18 AM(UTC)
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Nobody has convinced me that a history tree is needed, if you move a feature and you want to move it back, you just move it back instead of using undo, I would like people to give me an example where history is needed?
To me a history tree is as outdated as CPU rendering.

Think about this one, take the counterbore function in Punch products, look at all the information boxes required to make the feature.
Now look at the direct modelling approach, two circles, one is pulled through and the other one is pulled to the required counterbore depth.
So it is all those information boxes vs two circles, which is easier on a CAD system?
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