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ToreT  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, June 18, 2008 10:42:44 AM(UTC)
ToreT

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Man
Norway

I have Mac Mini Core Duo, and everybody knows it has a very limited graphics processing capability. So I'm thinking about buying a second hand Power Mac G5 with ATI Radeon 9600 XT card and 4.5G ram. But will next versions of Shark be Universal Binary and is this a smart purchase for $1000?
ttrw  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, June 18, 2008 11:41:46 AM(UTC)
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I'm going to call your bluff on this one because I don't think that the Mac Mini has a 'very limited' graphics capability. On the contrary, my Father's partner is a graphics designer, and she has just bought a Mac mini to compliment her existing G4 Aluminium Powerbook!

My wife has an iMac 17" with a core duo 2 processor, and it runs VC in my experience, better than this MBP! (same graphics card as the Mac Mini!!!)

Next year Apple will introduce Snow Leopard. This new OS will be optimised for Intel Macintosh's and that includes much improved graphics ability. If you buy a G5, you will not get this performance boost. In fact I bet that you will get frustrated with your G5's speed anyway, because the system buss on the G5 is only around 167MHz, the Mac Mini being a lot faster (667MHz?).

If you still want to upgrade, consider getting an iMac with a core duo 2 in it. These are exceptionally good bargains.
tmay  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, June 18, 2008 12:30:59 PM(UTC)
tmay

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ttrw wrote:
I'm going to call your bluff on this one because I don't think that the Mac Mini has a 'very limited' graphics capability. On the contrary, my Father's partner is a graphics designer, and she has just bought a Mac mini to compliment her existing G4 Aluminium Powerbook!

My wife has an iMac 17" with a core duo 2 processor, and it runs VC in my experience, better than this MBP! (same graphics card as the Mac Mini!!!)

Next year Apple will introduce Snow Leopard. This new OS will be optimised for Intel Macintosh's and that includes much improved graphics ability. If you buy a G5, you will not get this performance boost. In fact I bet that you will get frustrated with your G5's speed anyway, because the system buss on the G5 is only around 167MHz, the Mac Mini being a lot faster (667MHz?).

If you still want to upgrade, consider getting an iMac with a core duo 2 in it. These are exceptionally good bargains.


The Mac Mini is fine for 2D with its integrated graphics, which actually uses main memory, and it is faster than a G4 Powerbook, but for 3D, rendering and especially assemblies, performance is marginal.

I have a Mac Mini 1.83 Ghz, 2GB and I have a Pentium 4 PC, 3.4Ghz and 2GB with a workstation card (FireGL X3-256, last of the AGP cards), and the difference is quite pronounced. At this point in time, the G5 would be an improvement, but I would consider it only a transition machine until the Nehalem machines and Snow Leopard arrives.

Nehalem introduces completely new memory architecture (conceptually like AMD's Hyperchannel), and performance over existing Mac Pro's might be up 50% and possibly more based on some preliminary benchmarks (which really comes down to Apple's Grand Central and OpenCL, and application adoption).

Were Tim to implement all of the technologies of Snow Leopard (and Lightworks), I would expect that the Mac Pro platform would have a decided edge over a similar Vista workstation running ViaCAD/Shark.

Farther out, we may be looking at a 64 bit, dual socket, 16 core machine supporting 32 threads, plus the bonus of full GPU (in multiples no less) support for graphics and general purpose computing. Everything else aside, that's some serious rendering capability.

The first Nehalem's are end of the year, Snow leopard most likely this time next year.

tom
ttrw  
#4 Posted : Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:21:30 PM(UTC)
ttrw

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tmay wrote:
The Mac Mini is fine for 2D with its integrated graphics, which actually uses main memory, and it is faster than a G4 Powerbook, but for 3D, rendering and especially assemblies, performance is marginal.

I have a Mac Mini 1.83 Ghz, 2GB and I have a Pentium 4 PC, 3.4Ghz and 2GB with a workstation card (FireGL X3-256, last of the AGP cards), and the difference is quite pronounced.


I don't know. I do agree with you to a point, because my old Compaq laptop displays VC slightly better, probably because it has a NVIDIA Geforce card, and yes I do think NVIDIA are better than ATI especially on performance,

But,

The proof in the pudding also very much depends on how well the software is written too and for example, many of the Cheetah 3D crowd use Mac Mini's and they swear by them. Personally I would recommend trying to get a better machine than the mac Mini, if you can, but going backwards, is ahem going backwards! I think it would be far wiser to stick with the current Intel processors, moving forward. Go beat up your bank manager a bit!! :D
ttrw  
#5 Posted : Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:30:34 PM(UTC)
ttrw

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Tom, I do admit that I am a little ignorant with what Apple are up to regarding this new architecture- I'm currently too busy getting an extended module out the way while beta testing VC at the same time :cool: :)

It does all look very exciting though. I'm looking forward to all the touch technology also. FWIW, I have an iPod touch, and the touch interface is great :D
tmay  
#6 Posted : Wednesday, June 18, 2008 2:12:16 PM(UTC)
tmay

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ttrw wrote:
Tom, I do admit that I am a little ignorant with what Apple are up to regarding this new architecture- I'm currently too busy getting an extended module out the way while beta testing VC at the same time :cool: :)

It does all look very exciting though. I'm looking forward to all the touch technology also. FWIW, I have an iPod touch, and the touch interface is great :D


I have a sales guy coming by today to demo CFDesign, computational fluid dynamics (CFD) software. I need it like a hole in the head, and I can't imagine that I'll have the money for another 9 months, but as in all analysis software, there's a whole lot of value added for my customers. What used to be my single customer in RF, and barely my bread and butter machining electronics housings, is expanding into a little bit more integration, so sheet metal, ECAD to MCAD and CFD capabilities could become useful.

The running joke with my friends is that I spend all of my time making housings and other items to pay for my software maintenance, and that I never have much time to use it because I'm making housings. Fortunately, I'm adding on some machining capacity (repairing a machine that has been down for quite awhile), so I'll be able to accomplish the same production in about half the time, or do what I'm doing now but add in the molds that I have been fitting in on a regular basis.

The interesting thing about this is that a model from ViaCAD/Shark will give the same result in analysis as a Pro/e or Solidworks model, albeit a native model has the advantage of ease of optimization. It would seem to me that an individual with such capabilities, the skills to use them, and modern hardware, would be able to provide basic engineering services to folks with modest MCAD capabilities and perhaps generate a bit of income.

I'm not that guy, at least until I get proficient at FEA and mechanism dynamics, but I did bring this up with Punch! sales that they should at some time in the future make an oline system available to connect users with those advanced users that can support native files and provide engineering/manufacturing/training services.

What's this have to do with Nehalem? Fast performance means quick turnaround, multiple iterations and optimization of parts and assemblies.

tom
jol  
#7 Posted : Wednesday, June 18, 2008 2:35:05 PM(UTC)
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I understood CFD stands for Coloured F***ing Drawings

: )
ttrw  
#8 Posted : Wednesday, June 18, 2008 2:46:10 PM(UTC)
ttrw

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FEA is probably one, if not the most important aspect of product design. Unfortunately FEA is also, as Ned Flanders puts it "One dilly of a pickle!" so to speak! They raced us through FEA on my course, and as a consequence, I studied how to mess things up big time in ANSYS software (I'm probably a better manager than I am an engineer :rolleyes: :( ). Actually ANSYS isn't that difficult to use, as long as you use the command window, instead of its awful GUI- which I emphasize, is dreadful.

I found that this is a very good place to start (plates with holes being a very common problem solving area- concerning Stress Concentration Factor cracks in the metal, plastic or wood as such);

http://courses.cit.cornell.edu/ansys/plate/index.htm

It also help swotting up on your bending moments (I) too... I = bd3/12 etc.
The reason for the maths is so you can double check the results in ANSYS against your findings.

R.E. Petersen's book "Stress Concentration Factors" is also really worth getting your mitts on too!

AND, don't forget the excellent GMSH software- which of course is freeware.

There $80 worth of free consultation! ;) :D
ttrw  
#9 Posted : Wednesday, June 18, 2008 2:48:44 PM(UTC)
ttrw

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jol wrote:
I understood CFD stands for Coloured F***ing Drawings

: )


LOL!!!!!!!!
dexter  
#10 Posted : Thursday, June 19, 2008 6:30:55 AM(UTC)
dexter

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Joined: 2/19/2007(UTC)
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If you'd like to compare Mac machinery, check out this site. It hasn't been updated in the past few months, but you can compare an older iMac against certain G5 machines:

http://macreviewzone.com/html/o...r/comparisons/imac.shtml

In other words, I'd second the opinion of getting a used Intel iMac over the G5. If you have a monitor that you'd like to use, hence the G5, then be sure to get an iMac with DVI-out.
ToreT  
#11 Posted : Thursday, June 19, 2008 10:09:15 AM(UTC)
ToreT

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Man
Norway

....well it's about being economical, not having money. I never bought top models when they were new, but maybe I will buy a better Graphics card next year keep the G5 another year and if possible put the graphics card into a newer machine. It's also about being on a designer skill level that justifies buying the best

However nobody answered the question: is it likely that Shark will be Universal Binary the next couple of years?
Tim Olson  
#12 Posted : Thursday, June 19, 2008 10:44:52 AM(UTC)
Tim Olson

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>>I understood CFD stands for Coloured F***ing Drawings

:)

In my earlier years we did a lot of work with CFD/FEA/CEM. Ultimately we would put protypes in a tunnel, stress it, or range test. But even in the early days we found these computational areas were very good for guiding delta designs decisions.


Tim
Tim Olson
IMSI Design/Encore
Tim Olson  
#13 Posted : Thursday, June 19, 2008 10:49:29 AM(UTC)
Tim Olson

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>>is it likely that Shark will be Universal Binary the next couple of years?

That will be driven by our technology partners support (Spatial, Lightworks, D-Cubed, OpenDesign) and Apple development tools support for UB. For OS9 to OSX they were all supportive of a generous transition period.


Tim
Tim Olson
IMSI Design/Encore
tmay  
#14 Posted : Thursday, June 19, 2008 11:12:11 AM(UTC)
tmay

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Tim Olson wrote:
>>I understood CFD stands for Coloured F***ing Drawings

:)

In my earlier years we did a lot of work with CFD/FEA/CEM. Utimately we would put protypes in a tunnel, stress it, or range test. But even in the early days we found these computational areas were very good for guiding delta designs decisions.


Tim


Okay, ya got me. What's CEM?

tom
Tim Olson  
#15 Posted : Thursday, June 19, 2008 12:03:59 PM(UTC)
Tim Olson

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>>What's CEM?

Computational ElectroMagnetics, it is a big driver for military aircraft design. We used it to reduce radar signature, make things more stealthy.

Tim
Tim Olson
IMSI Design/Encore
ttrw  
#16 Posted : Thursday, June 19, 2008 12:29:50 PM(UTC)
ttrw

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CEM?

Computational Engineering Multiphysics?

Curtis Electronic Music?

Contraption Extusion Methods?

Conceptual Ergonomic Muppeteering?? :eek:

???
ttrw  
#17 Posted : Thursday, June 19, 2008 12:30:48 PM(UTC)
ttrw

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Tim Olson wrote:
>>What's CEM?

Computational ElectroMagnetics,


Ah! I knew I shouldn't have broken for dinner! :D

(or edited/ read before posting!)
tmay  
#18 Posted : Thursday, June 19, 2008 12:48:46 PM(UTC)
tmay

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http://www.cadsoftusa.com/

Coincidence? I think not...
Tim Olson  
#19 Posted : Thursday, June 19, 2008 1:11:16 PM(UTC)
Tim Olson

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>>Coincidence?

Different CADSoft, not us. The only thing we are still involved with related to those former days is our relationship with darcorporation and AeroPack.

http://www.darcorp.com/uploads/...%20Concepts%20Border.jpg


Tim
Tim Olson
IMSI Design/Encore
tmay  
#20 Posted : Thursday, June 19, 2008 1:14:05 PM(UTC)
tmay

Rank: Senior Member

Joined: 2/21/2007(UTC)
Posts: 278

Tim Olson wrote:
>>Coincidence?

Different CADSoft, not us. The only thing we are still involved with related to those former days is our relationship with darcorporation and AeroPack.

http://www.darcorp.com/uploads/...%20Concepts%20Border.jpg


Tim


I found a few others after I posted so I figured as much.
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